And here’s why:
Psalm 14:1-3 KJV says: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
If I save someone’s life, it is good; I prove Yahweh wrong. Furthermore, if I save a life and God chooses not to, then am I not better than a god who does not save lives when it is able?
If you object saying,”Yahweh is using you to do his works,” then Yahweh is using me to do good. So I am doing good. Which means Yahweh is wrong.
Or am I wrong? Let me know in the comments.
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#1 by Jenny Mathis on September 30, 2009 - 10:42 pm
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You are using one small text to prove your larger thesis of God being wrong altogether. Frankly, your argument misses the point and is quite an immature argument. Once can't be sure who God is talking about when reading that, you'd have to go and look at the source and find out who actually wrote that Psalm, etc. It could merely be talking about one group of people, not everyone in the world. It could be talking about a specific time and place. It's not necessarily talking about you. If this is the kind of arguments you use, I can see they're more on the ridiculous side. No offense.
#2 by jesuspoet on October 1, 2009 - 1:33 am
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So are you saying that Psalm 23 [show] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
shouldn't be used in funerals because it was about one specific incident? Figuring out who it was originally addressed to is irrelevant when the vast majority of Christians operate under the assumption that they should apply all verses of the Bible to their lives. I will admit that this particular blog post is not an effective argument against the existence of a god, however it does help to show the fallibility of the supposedly perfect compilation that is the bible. Also, the fact that there is so much room for interpretation in the words of the bible really makes one wonder why, if the creator of the universe himself wrote this, it is so unclear on so much. Seems rather silly. The fact that GG was able to expose this passage as nonsense in essence casts the rest of the bible in doubt, because if one part of the bible is not perfect, how can we know the rest is? Please don't just go after the weaker arguments and try to claim victory, actually put forward some new evidence so that those of us who are doomed to hell if you are right shall not suffer such a terrible demise.
He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters.
He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life,
and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.
#3 by godlessgirl on October 1, 2009 - 1:55 am
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Hi Jenny. What I was doing was technically unstated, so I can kind of see where you got these impressions. I was responding to a very common point made by Christians against atheists. Psalm 14:1 [show] The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
is a very popular verse used to mock us. As a play on "fool" people say April 1 should be Atheist Day. It's quite insulting (though laughable) and is the very same thing you believe my entry is: a ridiculous, immature argument taken out of context.
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
I did not say that my thesis was to prove god wrong altogether. I was saying god (who is said to have fully inspired and thus approved these writings) is wrong in this case if this is what he thinks. I could have gone into how David wrote this psalm and all that, but that was not my point. The point was to very quickly and simply say something in response to that silly common insult thrown at atheists.
You said "It's not necessarily talking about you." What a relief that would be if the myriad people who say this verse is about non-theists thought as you do. Perhaps you could stand up for us when you hear someone tell an atheist they are a fool because they say there is no god.
I hope that clears it up for you.
#4 by Pseudonym on October 2, 2009 - 3:47 am
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For what it's worth, I agree that this argument that you sometimes hear (not often, in my experience) is what's really wrong. It didn't help that you used a 400 year old translation of the song; the word "fool" is used in a fairly archaic sense, referring to someone who is mad, insane or living in an illusory world. (In fact, it's pretty much the same non-technical sense in which Richard Dawkins uses the word "deluded".) It didn't any the connotation of insult or contempt until quite recently in history.
This psalm is not a lament on atheism, but on the fact that an awful lot of people (all of them, in a typical psalmist-like fit of frustrated hyperbole) are simply wicked. The sense that you're supposed to get is that the psalmist sees these horrible things as symptoms of the human condition, not causes of it.
I would paraphrase the opening of this psalm like this: People are shameless. They say "there is no God", they are all corrupted, they all do evil, and fail to do anything that's good.
Of course that's not how a Serious Thinker(tm) would put it today, but as first-milennium-BCE rants go, it's not too bad.
#5 by rodiel on September 30, 2009 - 11:22 pm
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No, you're pretty much right. I raised an eyebrow though, at this part: "If I save someone’s life, it is good". Only if that life is threatened by external circumstances and not by their own choice. But I guess you didn't mention that because you thought it was natural. Well, for many people it's unfortunately not.
I don't mean it as criticism though, your argument is sound.
"One can't be sure who God is talking about" – Bwahahaha. Even if it's true, it doesn't matter. He clearly uses the atheism of the people he's talking about as the cause of their misbehaviour. And to me this "they all" phrasing and the scene of looking down to the people on Earth sounds pretty much of a global judgment.
#6 by Thoughtful on November 4, 2009 - 7:39 am
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"and not by their own choice" Are you seriously saying that suicide is okay? If you had a kid, would you really have no problem with them saying "I want to die, bye now". Even if I was an atheist, I'd have a huge problem with this statement.
(Keep in mind that this is purely an observation and I could very well be entirely wrong)
Why do most (again, an observation) atheists seem to not have a problem with death related things like the death penalty, abortion, or pulling the plug?
If I didn't believe in a life after death than wouldn't it make a heck of a lot more sense to keep myself, and everyone else, alive as long as possible? Wouldn't that be the whole goal of life? To live long enough to at least achieve a fulfilled life if not a long one?
It just doesn't make sense to me, and I again I repeat that that was all based on atheists I know and it could very well be a wrong observation in regards to the whole group (Plus, absolutes are always wrong).
#7 by Wes Hagen on September 30, 2009 - 11:51 pm
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Jenny, either the Bible is perfect and Holy and true, or it is not. I think GodlessGirl dos an excellent job of proposing a proof that makes the Bible look 'immature' and 'ridiculous'. It's as if it were written by ignorant, enslaved, warmongering, bloodthirsty goatherders 5000 years ago. Oh wait, it was. If you want to believe that the most confounding riddles of metaphysics were solved by wandering Semites, you just go ahead. But watch who you call immature and ridiculous.
#8 by @oddstruck on October 1, 2009 - 1:30 am
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I think god is using me to rid the world of the pizza and beer menace. And buffalo wings. Evil buffalo wings.
#9 by Tabitha Haswell on September 30, 2009 - 8:36 pm
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Jenny, whether your point is valid or not, Christians have no problem taking that SAME single verse out of context and applying it to all atheists… But here an atheist takes it alone to prove a point and you think she’s the one taking it out of context… which shows you are not only ridiculous but also hypocritical. Unless you think Christians should be the only ones aloud to do that. In which case you’re just ridiculous.
#10 by @blogmum on October 1, 2009 - 1:53 am
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@ Jenny – I've lost count of the number of Christians who've quoted "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God" at me and called it proof that God exists. You're right, it's an idiotic argument
(no offence, GG – you see what I did there
)
#11 by Eric on April 19, 2010 - 9:52 pm
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Where do you get your idea of good if there is no God?
If there was no God we could not disagree on what is good, we could only fight as savages. Arguments arise because both parties are set on proving one another wrong. And there is no sense in proving the other man wrong unless you had some agreement on what right and wrong were.
So how do you explain your desire to do ‘good’ or even your ability to call something good? Where does this ‘moral’ law come from if not from God?